I was recently asked on a website, by someone named Tim, a Protestant, this question:
“Please do tell me how that works. How does the Holy Spirit guide YOU through the Catholic Church? Any robot could say “The Catholic church is the only true church”.
Although the following isn’t exactly what I told him, it does catch the jist of it. I will add, as I do want to use this example of how the Holy Spirit does guide the Catholic Church.
So, the question more or less is: How does the Holy Spirit guide ME through the Catholic Church?
After thinking about this very good question from Tim, I thought I’d start in scripture first and work my way forward. So I asked a list of questions which the Apostolic Church had to address in Apostolic times. That question occurs in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, St. Paul and St. Barnabus went to Jerusalem to address a problem that had come up in some of the Churches that St. Paul was evangelizing. It was the question of whether the Gentile converts had to be made Jewish first, and be circumcised before becoming followers of Christ. This group become known as the Judaizer party.
- Is Tim a Judaizer?
- Is Tim a Nicolaitan?
- Is Tim a Gnostic?
- Is Tim a Montanist?
- Is Tim a Sabellianist?
- Is Tim a Arian?
- Is Tim a Nestorian?
- Is Tim a Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian?
- Is Tim a Monophysite?
- Is Tim a Catharist?
- Is Tim a Anabaptist?
- Is Tim a Lutheran?
- Is Tim a Calvinist?
- Is Tim a Morman?
- Is Tim a member or one of the 45,000 different denominations of Protestantism?
What I ended up saying to Tim is that this is how the Holy Spirit protects and GUIDES Christ’s Church. This is just one example of how the Holy Spirit protected the Apostolic Church against false teachings and heresies. It is the funcion of the Church to expose every new wind of doctrine, of the trickery of men, who by craftiness in deceitful scheming can have have introduced false doctrines onto the faithful. This has been occuring since Apostolic times.
The Holy Spirit, working through the Church, has throughout history, guided the church that Jesus Christ established on the faith of the Apostles with Himself as the Cornerstone. One of the functions of the Church is to open the eyes of the blind who have been deluded and bewitched into believing the precepts of men. Such men as these men: Nicolaitas, Arius, Montanus, Nestorius, Pelagius, Huss, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Knox, Smyth, Smith, Smith, Smith, Johnson, Eddy, Smith, Young, and the list is around 45,000 other heretics long.
I reminded this person that Satan always comes as an angel of light, but is always found to be a wolf in sheeps clothing. Another example is the Nicolaitans, warned about by Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus hates heresy and curses those who do not follow Apostolic teaching and preaching. Another point I made to Tim was that the Church didn’t start in 1517. It started in the Upper Room on Pentecost 33 A.D.. There were 13 people present in the Upper Room that day. The 12 Apostles and Mary, the Mother of God. Mary encountered the Holy Spirit at the Incarnation of the Son of God, and again she encounters the Holy Spirit, this time at another birth: The birth of the Church, The one and only Church He established on the faith of the Apostles with Himself as the cornerstone.
A few examples on this matter from the Book of Acts will make sense on how the Holy Spirit guides the Church. In chapter 15, St. Peter and then St. James both speak in one voice and rule that the Mosaic law requiring circumcision was no longer a requirement for Jewish converts who accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Nor were the Gentile converts required to be circumcised, (Acts 15:6-11, Acts 15:13-29).
The key point in Acts 15 is verse 15:28
“For it seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:”
Here is exactly how the Holy Spirit guided the early Church and still guides the Church. And the Church that is quided by the Holy Spirit is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The amazing thing is I keep hearing that the early churches were separate entities. This is clearly an unbiblical view or belief. Why would the Apostles and Elders of the Jerusalem Church send out letters to all the churches. In Acts 15:22-24 –
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, …..
Notice that the Apostles, Elders and the Whole Church have SENT others out. These are SENT. Those SENT are on an Apostolic mission. The Church is not in disunity unless they are being taught something not from the Apostles or those sent by Apostles and Elders. Think of both the Judaizers and the Nicolaitans.
Another example of the Holy Spirit guiding the early Church can be seen in Acts 16:6-10
6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8 So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. 9 During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
John 16:13
“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
If anyone answers “Yes” to any of the above questions, then that person is not a member of The Church that Jesus Christ established on earth on the Faith of the Apostles with Himself as the cornerstone.
That Church is The Catholic Church.
In the Peace of Christ,
R. Zell
Sola Symbolica - The 6th Sola of Protestantism 
Sir; I do not know the answer to your question. I don’t think that any Protestant has ever said that “the Holy Spirit made us do that”. And Protestants do not claim to be infallible. Did you mean “American Indians”?
Besides, you really did NOT answer my question, but avoided it by throwing this up in my face, as if I were the one who had done it. I was NOT part of that community. Whatever anyone did then should have been dealt with in the community then, and I don’t agree with a lot of things that Protestants have done either, and I still don’t. But, please answer my questions.
But let me say this…Disobedience to YHVH, opens the door to evil on the earth, so how can anyone pray “Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven”, when they are disobedient. Furthermore, the “ordinances against us” are NOT the 10 commandments, or the rest of Torah…they are the penalties for disobedience. Both RCC and Protestants usually contend that “people will always have sin in their lives”. What happens when we sin, is that it separates us in our relationship with the Father, and we lose our testimony. We bring shame on the Gospel Please answer my questions.
Also, how do you determine objective Truth for believers, if you don’t ever confirm what the Pope says by Scripture? Does that mean that he can say anything, whether it contradicts Scripture, or not? It is usually televangelists that say such things. I know that some Protestant clergy are prideful and don’t like to be asked questions, but they don’t usually claim to be infallible. And there are some Protestants who will believe anything that their pastor says, and will not believe anything unless their pastor says it. Please answer my questions.
For instance, RCC says that “Mary was preserved sinless”. But Scripture states that “there is only ONE sinless ONE”. Mary could NOT die for our sin. She was a pure virgin, but Scripture tells us that Joseph did not “know” here UNTIL after Yeshua was born. The reason she was a virgin to give flesh to Yeshua is so that He did NOT INHERIT THE SIN NATURE FROM ADAM! Sin comes through the man, Adam. It is my understanding that the blood of the mother and child do not mix…each has it’s own blood type. Mary was able to give Yeshua His humanity. YHVH gave Him His Divinity… the Divine Spirit. Scripture tells us that “all the fullness of the Godhead DWELLS IN HIM bodily”. Human body…divine Spirit. And, when we enter into Covenant with YHVH, through the blood of Messiah Yeshua, and are born again, He puts His blood on the doorposts of our hearts. Even at the Tabernacle/Temple the priest did not drink the blood of the sacrifice, nor give it to others to drink. It is circumcision of the heart, “not done with human hands” that matters. Please answer my questions. Please don’t deflect them.
When we tolerate sin, defend sin, propagate sin, and then legislate sin, in civil society, then we are on a very slippery slope. And some might even add, tax and regulate sin. Please answer my questions. Please do not ignore them.
I will have to go back and look at the RED LETTER edition of the Scripture. I also plan to send a message with the various verbatim statements from the RCC documents, which caused me, and others, to conclude that they don’t line up with Scripture and that we cannot embrace those statements.And I will also try to respond to the question of “transubstantiation”. Please answer my questions. Please do not ignore them. I didn’t ask them to be a smart mouth or a problem child. I need to hear what you have to say, because you insist that the Roman Catholic Church is the only, true and infallible church. Each group seems to think that THEY ALONE are THE PRESERVED REMNANT…the RCC does, the Lutherans do, the Baptists do, also, the Evangelicals, and probably more do. I have Protestants try to bludgeon me with verses that state various things, and yet, many ignore other verses that are equally valid. So, who is correct? Hmmm…let me see…just answer my questions. Then we might be able to discuss the issue that you brought up.
One reason why I don’t seem to have the time to research anew some of these issues so that I can give a well thought out, measured response, is because I have had some health issues and it takes me longer to get all of the things done, that I need to get done, to “mind the things of the world”. This should not be for public consumption,so I hesitate, but I contracted Lyme Disease a few years ago, and have been having some problems since then…DVTs and a PE. Speaking of blood… Please don’t send me any medical advice or try to FIX me. 🙂
Once again, thank you for considering my thoughts. And once again, I would appreciate a direct answer to my questions. It would help me to understand where you are in your thinking on a practical level. Look for one more message with the information from the RCC documents and further commentary on “transubstantiation”. Then, I think, I’m finished with this. I really didn’t intend for this to get so complicated.
Baruch B’Shem Yeshua
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Sister, I can ask you those same questions. Did the Holy Spirit Guide Protertsnts to murder, pillage, rape and enslave a race of American Americans, etc.
Go to the scriptures and read Matthew 13 of what Jesus says His Kingdom will be like. Go to Matthew 25 and read who are called into the wedding feast.
Any Catholic, or any of those not in His Church, be say they are Christians will all be judged for the good and bad they do in the body.
Not I am not trying to convert you. I have no power to do that. All I want is to correct your understanding on the Red Letter Words of Christ at the Bread of Life Discourse He Himself revealed to the Apostles….. That is all.
Go post your favorite passage on that page. I read portions of Psalm 25 which is another penitential psalm.
Blessings
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I don’t engage with Timothy because I JUST DON’T HAVE THE TIME RIGHT NOW. Here’s what I THINK might be happening, but I’m not sure…bait, badger and bully. I would hope that you are NOT trying to convert me to the RCC. I think about Messiah Yeshua, ALL THE TIME, we are supposed to “bring every thought into captivity to the mind of Messiah”, and we are told “I will keep him/her in PERFECT PEACE, whose mind is stayed on ME”. HE, YESHUA, IS THE “WORD MADE FLESH”…His FLESH was/is nothing…He was born to die! We are to proclaim His death until He returns, NOT His birth! His death and resurrection are what purchased our salvation! Some people are willing to accept His atoning sacrifice to pay the penalty for their sin/disobedience, because they want a pass…but do not accept His deliverance from the POWER OF SIN…Victory OVER the flesh! Scripture tells us “through many tribulations we enter the Kingdom”, which, at first, seems at odds with “My yoke is easy, My burden is light”. Hmmm..
Would you please answer a couple of questions. Was it the Holy Spirit that led the RCC, under the Medici’s, to burn Savonarola ALIVE? Now, understand that I am NOT necessarily a cheer leader for Savonarola, but at least, he was trying to do something. Is it the Holy Spirit that has led several priests, who, I’m assuming, “take the body and blood of “Jesus” regularly, to become pedophiles? And was it the Holy Spirit that led the RCC to cover up the scandal of the pedophile priests and refuse to deal with it? Please answer “yes or no” to these questions. Scripture tells us, “judgment begins at the House of YHVH”. How can anyone expect righteous, regenerate thinking and behavior from unrighteous, unregenerate people…especially when the so-called believers, do NOT walk that walk? If the RCC or any other “church” is stumbling around in the dark and wallowing in sin, what is the point of preaching the Gospel, “good news” to others? What do they really have to offer the world? NOTHING that the world can’t offer…forgiveness without repentance! Does that make sense?
As you well know, there are those who teach “transubstantiation”, or “consubstantiation”, etc., or various other teachings about “communion”. I was reading something that one of you wrote, and in one place “eucharist” is said to mean one thing, and in another place, it is said to mean something else. I need to go back and look at that again, but as I said, NO TIME, RIGHT NOW. So, which is it? For me, and this is a Holy Spirit informed teaching, because it lines up with Scripture, Communion is the Cup of Redemption of the Passover, to be taken ONCE A YEAR, IN REMEMBRANCE OF HIM, UNTIL HE RETURNS. At the first Passover, the Israelites, did not drink the blood of the lamb, they put it on their doorposts, so that the angel of death would PASS OVER their households. In the New Covenant, Messiah Yeshua is the “Lamb of YHVH who TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD”. He doesn’t just COVER sin…like at the Tabernacle/Temple, so that the priests had to keep doing it over and over again…to the extent that thousands of animals were sacrificed at the Tabernacle/Temple. I can’t give you all of the numbers right off the top of my head. Messiah Yeshua is the HIGH PRIEST, after the order of Melchitzedek…”righteous king”. He is our sacrificial Lamb, our High Priest, our Righteous King, our healer, our deliverer, etc., etc. He, like me, is ONE PERSON, God knew me before I was born, so I must have been a spirit, but I was born as a daughter, I was a sister, then I was a wife and a mother, so when someone asks, “how can Messiah be all those things?”, they can’t understand the traditional explanation because it is so confusing. But if you explain it just as I have done, that I am one person, but can also be and function as a mother and a daughter, etc. they get it!
Here’s the deal…St Paul wrote, “through one MAN, Adam, sin entered the world”. Adam disobeyed, ONE command, then blamed the woman, then blamed YHVH for giving the woman to him! YHVH holds Adam, and ALL MEN, to a higher expectation, as His redeemed people. And, as I have said several times, after the sin of the golden calf, God, YHVH, was determined to wipe Israel off the face of the earth! But the earthly deliverer, Moshe, interceded, and YHVH relented and did NOT kill them all! And I’m sure it was both men and women who disobeyed and took part in the golden calf. HE, YHVH, had just told them, directly, NOT to make any graven images, etc., and they had said, “we hear and we will obey”. And yet, they did NOT obey! So, YHVH gave instructions for the Ark, the Tabernacle, the earthly, Levitical priesthood was establihsed, and altar sacrifices for sin were prescribed. so He made “ANOTHER COVENANT” with Israel, just outside the Promised Land, after they had wandered in the wilderness, in the Land of Moab. (BTW, Moab was the son of Lot with one of his daughters…incest) And that is the system of sacrifice and offering and earthly priesthood that was established by Rome, sometime after, about 2-300 years AFTER Messiah’s death and resurrection. I have studied the whole system, and how it came about. I cannot give you all of the details right off the top of my head, because, as I said, it takes time and energy to fully document all of this. Much of it has come directly from the Roman Catholic writings, themselves. I will have to go to the original sources to quote from the original writings of Roman Catholic theologians/writers, etc. OR, I can refer you to other authors who have sourced and documented these things. That’s the best I can do on short notice. I dig for myself, as I said, I don’t just open my head and let others pour info in. NOT anymore! I evaluate everything I research and take in by SCRIPTURE. If some say that the “Old Testament” is “done away with” and the “New Testament is irrelevant”…then the only thing left is a “social club”…and the Israelites were judged many times, because “everyone did what was right in his own eyes”. We must CLING to THE LIVING WORD, Messiah Yeshua! And He said, “I did NOT come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to fulfill them”. Fulfill does NOT mean “abolish”! And while the “churches” all claim to be non-profit…really they are NON-PROPHET! BTW, the “church in the wilderness” is the true “church”. It is where YHVH TESTED them, as I said, YHVH tests, Ha Satan tempts! The tester wants us to pass, the tempter wants us to fail! I have spent way too much time on this already…but if you learn something from what I have said, your words, it is worth every minute of time! We need to take little bites or bits, of information to discuss, if we are really going to discuss this. It does take a lifetime to learn , to become equipped, and walk it out, so that we have something to share with others that is life giving…and we can only offer them Messiah Yeshua! He is the way, the Truth, and the life, and NO ONE comes to the Father, but by Him…and NO ONE can come to Him unless the Spirit draws them.
BTW, my favorite verse of Scripture is Psalm 51; ‘Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away in your hot displeasure and take not your Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation. Then will I teach transgressors your ways and sinners will be converted unto Thee”. That’s the purpose of Messiah’s appearing, His death and resurrection…to restore us to right/eous relationship with the Father, YHVH! He said that the commandments would be written on our hearts of flesh and in our minds, instead of on tablets of stone! Most Christians want the 10 commandments posted everywhere, but who do they think is going to obey them…if they are not? And once again, if you look at Washington, D.C. in the U. S., the political center of gravity centered in one place near the East Coast of the U.S., and that is NOT the way it was intended, with an over-reaching Fed Gov. The U. S. was founded as independent Republics, each with it’s own Constitution, (based on the Decalogue), it’s own legislature, it’s own governor, it’s own state house, etc., in order to keep government close to home! I’ve studied that issue out for many years, also! Same principle as gravity and the “church”. It was intended for their to be local bodies of redeemed, born again believers, and they were supposed to be guided by Scripture, through the power of the Holy Spirit of Messiah Yeshua, But, because so many “teachers” thought to teach their own ideas, instead of teaching Scripture and letting it speak to the hearts of the believers, and the first Council at Jerusalem was made up of MESSIANIC JEWS, NOT GENTILES, and there were “myriads and myriads of Jews who believed, and they were ALL zealous FOR the Law”…(I looked up the word myriads…and it means “a lot”, like thousands of thousands) So, when people tell me, “there were only a few Jews who accepted Jesus”…hmmmm….NOT TRUE.
Don’t take my word for anything. Search the Scriptures yourself, and ask for the INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT”S revelation of the Truth to you. Judge everything that I say, or that anyone else tells you, by the Holy Scriptures. As I said, “the Holy Spirit never leads contrary to or apart from the Word of YHVH”…both Covenants. The entire Bible , both Covenants, is the Word of YHVH, the Hebrew Scriptures. And remember, Hebrew means to cross over, and in Messiah Yeshua, we cross over from death to life! “Yeshua” means “salvation”. BTW, Abraham was NOT a “Jew”…there were NONE yet, NOT until the son of Jacob was born, and was named Yehudah. Sometimes, the world “Jew”, is used as a pejorative…a shortened, slang expression for Yehudah or Yehudim. (since there was NO “J” in Hebrew.
If you ARE trying to convert me, then thanks, but NO THANKS.
I gotta go now. I truly hope that your fish had fins and scales. 🙂
Baruch B’Shem Yeshua,
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You are welcome. Why do you not engage Timothy on Transubstantiation. I learn from debate and dialogue. It is why I chose to stay Catholic. Nobody here is trying to convert you to Catholicism. Only God can move you by His abundant Grace into His Church.
Read about Rabbi Zoller the chief Rabbi in Rome.
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Thank you. Baruch B’Shem Yeshua.
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I understand sister. You say You rely on scripture. I also rely on scripture, but I also have a teaching authority I rely on as well. You are also correct that I do rely on my Church. Here is why:
Ephesians 3:8-12 NASB
[8] To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
[9] and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
[10] so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known *THROUGH the CHURCH* to the rulers and the authorities in the *heavenly places.*
[11] This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
[12] in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
Again, Paul does not say the manifold wisdom of God is made known through the scriptures.
I’ve had many a Protestant tell me this almost verbatum: “The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth.”
Sister, are you telling me the same thing as those Protestants? It was the Church out of necessity who defined the Blessed Trinity. In the above article, there is a reason why we have not fallen into formal heresy.
I know you came out of protestantism and that is fine, but you are still holding to some of their doctrines, i.e., baptism is an ordinance….. .
Jew wasn’t just a Jew. Jesus was a 2nd Temple Jew. He did not start a “New Religion.” Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. Many Jews came to Christ then and now. Many messianic Jews are filtering into the Catholic and Orthodox Churches because they understand the Divine Liturgy.
I agree about the 10 commandments and that false teaching grows out of Sola Scriptura which always breaks down into Solo Scriptura.
You know that Jesus’ answer the the “Rich Young Ruler and then again to the Lawyer” both speak against the false doctrine of Faith Alone, aka Sola Fide,
I can easily prove that the Rock is Peter that Christ builds His Church (not church’s). Jesus is the Rock of Rocks and the Foundation of Foundations, but He entrusted Peter in from of the 10 other Apostles to Tend, to Feed and to Shephersd His Sheep and Lambs. That is true obedience to His Red Letter Words.
You also claimed Gods people weren’t cannibals. I presented why you think the Red Letter Words of “Take, eat, this is Ny Flesh/Body” reveals the Bread of Life Discourse to the Apostles. I think that you don’t trust His words at the Bread of Life Discourse and revealed at the Last Supper that the Bread and Wine are Transubstantiated. When I said we believe it spiritually I did not mean Symbolically. You have misinterpreted my argument.
Yes, Jesus didn’t mean He was a literal vine. But, at the Last Supper he isn’t holding a vine, a gate, a roadmap, or water, he is not holding up truth, he is holding up Bread revealing the meaning of the loaves and the Bread of Life. The New Manna for the journey.
As for holding up bread and wine before He was sacrificed, I can tell you how, but if you don’t understand substance and accidents it will be lost on you.
The error found in John 6 was to think Jesus meant to give his body in a carnal manner. Bur the other error (i.e. that Christ is only present in the Eucharist by His Holy Spirit) does not allow us to eat of that flesh and drink of that blood of which He said, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.” (John 6:53).
Do you think you addressed by argument in answering your objections to Transubstantiation?
You say we can argue over flesh and blood etc. We could, but my perspective comes from the almost 2,000 year old Church. So you are not arguing with me.
Blessings
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R. Zell; I don’t want to take any more of your time. It takes me quite a while to follow up on this stuff, and then to give a measure response. I did look up “Torah Shebichtav”, “written Torah”, and “Torah Sheba’al Peh”, “oral Torah”, so now I know what those words mean. As I said, I am NOT a learned scholar, so I am really not qualified to debate either of you, but I don’t think that you are going to convince me of what your system of belief says that I should be thinking or doing. One quick example is, I rely on the Scriptures and you say that you rely on the “church”, NOT the Scriptures. I also do not think that the “Jews” converted to a “new religion” called “churchianity”…that is also what most of the Protestants say, also, that “of course, “Jesus was a Jew”, but He actually started a “new religion” called Christianity. That doesn’t make sense! I will never, ever agree that the10 commandments have been “done away with”, were “abolished”, “nailed to the cross”, etc., etc. NEVER, EVER! Because it just isn’t true! Sorry! I have devout, observant Orthodox friends, and I would NEVER,EVERY try to convert them to Gentile, Aryan “Jesus”! When the rich, young ruler asked Messiah Yeshua, “what must I do to enter eternal life”, and Yeshua told him, “Keep the commandments”…and then He called him to follow Him…Yeshua did NOT tell the young man to stop keeping the commandments…He told him that it was GOOD! Some people say that one verse in Scripture is “for Messiah is the ‘end of the Law’ “…and claim that is means that the Law came to an end when Messiah appeared, but the Truth of the matter is, the correct rendering of that verse is “for Messiah is the GOAL at which Torah/Law aims”. We are also told, “for the Law is/was our tutor to bring us to Messiah”…well, when parents hire/hired a tutor for their children, and especially in antiquity, they would hire a “pedagogue” to accompany a child and train the child in good behavior, not necessarily academics…which is the “line upon line, precept upon precept”…idea. So when the child reached maturity, he/she would be like his/her master…we/they would “no longer be under a tutor/pedagogue”, but that didn’t mean the parents then banished the pedagogue/tutor, told the children to forget all that the tutor had taught them, and to go their own way! NOT! Neither did the parents “nail the tutor/Law to the cross”, stomp on it, and then throw it away! NO! Messiah appeared to teach the Truth of the Law…to properly interpret it! He even told the disciples, “for the Pharisees sit in Moses seat, therefore, so what they tell you, but don’t do what they do, for they say and do not”, Case in point: when the woman was caught in adultery, the Pharisees only brought the woman for stoning. They did NOT bring the man, her partner in crime! They were the “good old boys” club! She didn’t commit adultery by herself! Some say that scenario is not in the original Scripture, and we could argue all of this until Hell freezes over! Suffice it to say now, I must get on with my life, and not try to convince you, nor have you try to convince me, of the rightness or wrongness of each other’s beliefs.
And yes, it is the supernatural, the Spiritual, NOT the carnal understanding that matters, and that is the point I have been trying to make. Too many who claim to be believers start at the wrong end…Pro-life people want to stop abortion, I want to call young people into obedience to the Gospel and get them to mortify the flesh. Some believers want to be cops to prevent crime, I want to give people the Truth that will set them free TO obey the commandments, willfully and volitionally, and they won’t need police, lawyers, courts, or more jails, etc. Get it? All people, Jews and Gentiles, and the rest of the House of Israel, ALL receive forgiveness for sin when they accept Messiah Yeshua as their redeemer/Savior! Yes! As I said, SAVED from the PENALTY of sin, BEING SAVED FROM the POWER OF SIN and will be SAVED from the very PRESENCE OF SIN< IF they continue to the end…We could argue about flesh and bone or flesh and blood, also…and we both will have our own perspective on it. I don't know how a glorified body would eat baked fish and digest it…and I don't really care! We are supposed to be childlike, NOT CHILDISH! And children don't need to know ALL of the details! We CAN'T KNOW all of the minutiae! Yeshua did NOT establish a "relligious" empire, with massive cathedrals, and collections of art, and have the center of it's "religious" gravity concentrated in Rome…gravity needs to be spread over the whole earth for the earth to work properly! When Messiah said that "I am the vine, you are the branches", He also said that He was the door… He didn't mean He was a literal vine, or a door, or whatever! He gave the disciples bread and wine, BEFORE He was even sacrificed, so it was NOT His literal blood and/or body!! It was the cup of Redemptin of the Passover! He used some natural examples to show spiritual realities! And you insist that your "church" is built on Peter, and mine is built on Messiah Yeshua! He is the ROCK that many "stumbled" over! I am not as clever as you are. But that doesn't make me less in the eyes of the Savor and Master! Please don't bother to answer my reply, and please don't have anyone try to debate me and convert me to Roman Catholicism! I appreciate many people who are in the Roman "church", The way to eternal life is narrow, and I am becoming narrower and narrower as time goes on…broad is the path to destruction! I see that destruction all around me! We have been through the Kennedy's, the Kennedy clan, the ongoing pedophile priest scandal, and a lot of other issues…and yes, I know, the Evangelicals and other Protestant denominations have had their scandals, etc., but as an institution, I can't accept the fact that if someone confesses to a priest and then offers another sacrifice for their sin, even the Mafia have done that…then they think that they are "okay". The circle of confession should be as large as the circle of offense, to YHVH and to the person/s that we have offended. But if someone commits a civil offense, and pedophilia SHOULD BE a civil offense, the perps need to be held accountable for it! They aren't even being held accountable within that institution! There is Biblical authority to prosecute and exact penalties for some crimes, but now, there is NO civil authority, because there is NO righteous civil government! As I said, I am NOT perfect, I don't have perfect knowledge or understanding, and I am NOT a skilled debater. And I gotta go…I'm exhausted! I am truly sorry I insinuated myself into this debate. I'm finished with this for now. Thanks for your time.
Be blessed and be a blessing, Baruch B'Shem Yeshua…
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Jennifer. I just asked Andrew Brewer to post His favorite bible verse on a page here (Go find it on this blog) that really speaks to you. Mine is Gal 2:20.
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Jennifer. I hear you loud and clear. Let me touch upon some of your comments.
Now, I believe that the Catholic Church is that Church Christ established on the foundation of the faith of His Apostles and Prophets, with Himself as the cornerstone, (John 6:44, Matthew 16:17, Ephesians 2:20). I recognize only “…. My Church ….” as the Church He established as the ordinary way in which to encounter Him. There is only One Flock which Christ is the Shepherd of. If I was outside this Church, I’ve course I would claim the church is invisible and all believers are members of the one Church. There is the Chief Shepherd who right now is sitting at the Right Hand of the Father and he left us other shepherds, who left other shepherds for us to follow as if Christ Himself were leading us, (Luke 10:16). When the Chief Shepherd comes again in Glory to judge the living and the dead, (1 Peter 5:4), we will receive the crown of glory.
This does not mean that the Messiah you have placed your trust in, that you Love with your heart of hearts, but then reject that Church found in scripture, has not called to in an extraordinary way. I can’t judge your heart. I can only go by what has been revealed by this Church.
Jennifer says: For instance, as someone previously said, “God is NOT a polygamist”, He has ONE bride”, so God’s Covenant people are NOT cannibals…eating blood is forbidden, particularly human blood. When you reference the Book of Acts, that is one of the 4 stipulations given to Gentiles for table fellowship with Messinic Jews…NO BLOOD!
Zell: I said that. Why is eating blood forbidden? Why are these Gentile converts being loosed from Circumcision and the Mosaic Dietary Laws? Where are those 4 stipulations also found?
Those 4 conditions were laid down and each of them were to help the Gentile convert avoid going back to their previous practices. It was binding as in Binding and Loosing.
These 4 stipulations allow Jews and Gentiles to share meals without causing scandal to the Jewish converts. There is much written about this anyway.
At the Bread of Life Discourse those disciples left in John 6:66, because they were thinking in a carnal manner and you are right that “God’s covenant people are NOT cannibals.” But here you are also thinking in a carnal manner. Do you think that if you were at the Bread of Life Discourse, you would also have left since Christ Jesus did not call them back and explain Himself. There was one person who didn’t believe His words in faith and should have left, but didn’t. If you do claim you would have stayed, you still would have know because there were only 12 people at the Last Supper, who heard these words: “Take, eat, this is My Flesh (/Body). ….” If you stayed a follower of Christ after the Bread of Life Discourse, you would find out that the Bread of Life Discourse is Revealed at the Last Supper to the Apostles who’s faith is the foundation of the Church.
As for Lev 17:11, It may be that the very reason God forbids drinking blood in the Old Covenant is the same reason Jesus commands His Disciples to drink His blood: For the life of the flesh is in the blood. Gen 9:3-4
It would also be sinful for Christ to even tell say to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
The substance of the host has been changed into the risen Body of Christ, which although fully corporeal and real, does not physically belong to this universe. The Jewish dietary laws pertain to the natural; what we are partaking of in the Holy Eucharist is supernatural. So our reception of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is not a mere physical event. It is an event where the supernatural meets the natural. The benefit of the Holy Eucharist is spiritual not physical; namely: GRACE. (from my notes).
SORRY THIS IS SO LONG. You put so much in this comment though.
Jennifer says: It is my hearts desire to KNOW HIM and to BE KNOWN BY HIM! NOT JUST KNOW ABOUT HIM! I don’t want Messiah Yeshua to respond to me, “Get away from Me, I never knew you, you Lawless ones”. It seems to be that He calls us, and if we hear the call and heed the call, and obey the call, then we are CHOSEN…to walk the walk and to talk the talk!
Zell: That sounds nice, but to actually be a partaker of the Divine Nature, one must be a member of His Body, the Church and not any Church, but the Christ He Himself founded upon the faith of Kephas/Cephas. Christ told us who his sheep and lambs are:
John 21:15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He *said to him, *“Tend My lambs.”*
16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, *“Shepherd My sheep.”*
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus *said to him, *“Tend My sheep.”*
If you obey Christ, then Peter is your shepherd until Christ comes again in Glory. Not messianic Jews or any church, but the Church we find in scripture. The linch pin is found in Acts 15. Again, you may be called by extraordinary Grace.
Jennifer: I beg to differ with you, that Gentiles were not supposed to “go into the synagogues on the Sabbath”, You said that you rely on the Book of Acts for the establishment of the RCC, and then you ignore what the Book of Acts clearly says. I have had people tell me that the disciples went on the “first day of the week”, but we have explored that, and the conclusion is that the first day of the week began after sunset on Sabbath.
Zell: There were Jewish converts who were circumcised and worshipped in the Temple. There were God-Fearers who were those who believed in the God of the Jews, and were not circumcised and did not follow the Mosaic dietary laws. The first type were allowed in the synagogues. I am not sure of the second and no time to research it right now.
Here is what scripture says about the Apostles.
Acts 2:46 ~ Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bead from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart.
So I think that temple worship was happening everyday. Synagogues were only open on the Sabbath and that is why Paul engages in attending synagogues on the sabbath, because that is where Jewish in a city would be located in large numbers; on a single day.
Jennifer says: Look, I have spent my whole life exploring this and examining Scripture from various points of view, and as I said, HE called me out of Reformation to Transformation Christianity…reformation being external, transformation being internal…I am where I belong…and you are where you want to be.
Zell: Fair enough. If you are called into the Catholic Church, you would be an instrument of God’s Grace. I was called to be in that Church where I pray all will be before the coming tribulations that will occur.
Jennifer says: Our older daughter fosters young children, so we are doing all that we can to “walk worthy”.
Zell: God Bless you for doing this.
Jennifer says: Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven! Scripture tells us that! All of Messiah’s blood was POURED OUT! I don’t literally drink His blood! That’s the stuff of vampires!
Zell: 2 things here that I just want to bring up quickly.
Jen says: ~ Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven! Scripture tells us that!
~ If you are speaking of Heaven, then you are totally wrong. Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven. Moses has been reunited with body and soul in heaven. 2 of these 3 appear at the Transfiguration.
Jen says: ~ All of Messiah’s blood was POURED OUT!
~ Was it? I’ve examined many dead bodies which it’s almost impossible to totally empty out unless the body is completely smashed and unrecognizable. Also, Paul states that we don’t know what be will be when we are Resurrected on the Last Day. When Jesus ate baked fish, I’m sure he digested it and you need blood for that. Angels have been guests in peoples homes and they had to have some way to digest a meal and get rid of it before returning to heaven.
Jen says: ~ Those who no longer walked with Jesus in John 6:66 said something similiar.
Zell: I do literally drink His Blood and eat His Body because He said to the Apostles “Take, eat, this is My Body…. My Blood.” Jesus actually says:
54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
I walk by FAITH in those words and not by sight. Timothy P would love to go over those words with you if you care to debate Transubstantiation and the Church Fathers. That is the belief of the Church then as it is now.
Jennifer says: Prior to that, she had told me that she couldn’t figure out how I had been graced by God in so many ways! (Because I wasn’t RCC) Go figure!
Zell: Sounds like this women doesn’t understand that people can come to Christ in an extraordinary way as I explain in Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus Part 2 which I just narrated.
Jennifer says: I think that baptism is an outward sign of an inward work!
Zell: Who told you that? That is not what the Church taught for the first 1500 years prior to the Reformation.
Do you think those Jews who were baptized by John the Baptist didn’t have their Sins forgiven? Was John the Baptists baptism false? Mark 1:4-5
So here is an example, Baptism, were we differ (as well as with Transubstantiation), how can this be if we both have the same scriptures? This is the premise of this particular Post (THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT). So how can we both have different opinions if the scriptures are so clear to each of us. Someone is wrong. Are you right and the Catholic Church is wrong, or are you wrong and the Catholic Church right. Just be aware that when I say the Catholic Church, I am referring to that Church in Acts and that church which the Apostle Paul wrote his Epistle to the Romans to. Are the scriptures so perspicuous that readers can both be right, yet one of them is wrong on something so essential as Baptism?
I’m sure you have your favorite scripture to prove that Baptism is not efficacious, and I can retort with my favorite scripture to prove Baptizimal Regeneration, etc.. But I don’t just use scripture to prove me premises or doctrines. Here is why:
Ephesians 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the Church (NOT THE SCRIPTURES) to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
What an incredible verse. The intellectually superior angels (in the heavenly places) themselves can know the wisdom of GOD by the Church? How? The Church is a divine institution.
Blessings Sister, Sorry it was so long, but I didn’t even begin to address all your points. Let us stay civil and we can progress in truth by examining our respective paradigms.
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To the “Fisherman”, R. Zell, and also to Sumsapientius; (I don’t even know what that means, is it a name?)
It is going to take me some time to read all of this and assimilate it into my thought processes. “The mind can absorb what the seat can endure”. 🙂 I am going to say, very briefly, however…that I am a convinced Messianic Gentile who is grafted into the “root & fatness of the good, cultivated Olive Tree of REDEEMED, BELIEVING REMNANT “ISRAEL”, SPIRITUAL ISRAEL. I find it interesting, and odd, that Roman Catholics consider themselves “true ‘Jews'” or True Messianics. I thought that I had mentioned once that RCC did go back to the Tanakh, to Deuteronomy, and embraced the “Law that was added because of transgressions”, deuteros meaning “second”, and nomos meaning “law”…instead of going back to Sinai, which is divine and eternal. As I said before, I don’t HAVE to obey or walk out the 10 commandments, etc., but I GET to, because I am grafted in through the blood covenant of Messiah Yeshua, and part of that new/renewed Covenant is that YHVH writes His Law/Commandments on the hearts of the recipients and puts it in their minds, and then they are EMPOWERED/ENABLED by the INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT to walk in the commandments. There really is so much to consider, and I find that we do disagree on some essential things, so it would really be futile to try to change each other’s minds on some of these issues. For instance, as someone previously said, “God is NOT a polygamist”, He has ONE bride”, so God’s Covenant people are NOT cannibals…eating blood is forbidden, particularly human blood. When you reference the Book of Acts, that is one of the 4 stipulations given to Gentiles for table fellowship with Messinic Jews…NO BLOOD! No, I do not “believe” in transubstantiation! I believe in TRANSFORMATION, as we are “washed with the water of the Word”, and as we are “transformed by the renewing of our minds”, text from the Apostolic Scriptures. Also, I”m going to say, right up front, I do not believe in the Trinity IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU MIGHT. I understand Echad as ONE, manifest in 3 persons/personalities. Yachad would be 3 persons becoming ONE person. Yachad is several people in Messiah, coming together to become ONE BODY!
As St Paul teaches, born again believers are like new born babes in the flesh, and so they must be fed milk, then pablum, and then, later, solid food. Also, they gradually learn to creep, to crawl, then to walk, with assistance, with someone holding their hand/s…and then walk on their own, and then, to run! But it is gradual and takes time. And I can’t have a thousand people with a thousand opinions and interpretations trying to teach me how to eat and/or walk or crawl, or say words. If someone crams something down our throat, just like a baby, we are more than likely to spit it up! Furthermore, I NO LONGER just open my head and let others pour information in. I am more discerning now, and I judge everything by the Scriptures, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that lives in me as a BORN AGAIN believer and a person in Covenant with the Creator of the Universe. Just quickly, “BORN ONCE, DIE TWICE. BORN TWICE, DIE ONCE”! I could spend my entire life sitting here debating interpretations and applications of Scripture, with various people that I don’t even know. Perhaps, I bit off more than I can chew, by making a comment in the first place. I do strive to be gracious and sensitive to others, and I saw that some became frustrated and angry and ended up being very ungracious. I guess that I should not have entered the fray. It is my hearts desire to KNOW HIM and to BE KNOWN BY HIM! NOT JUST KNOW ABOUT HIM! I don’t want Messiah Yeshua to respond to me, “Get away from Me, I never knew you, you Lawless ones”. It seems to be that He calls us, and if we hear the call and heed the call, and obey the call, then we are CHOSEN…to walk the walk and to talk the talk! A lot of people want to talk the talk without walking the walk. Most everyone wants to be the mouth of the Body of Messiah, but for me, I have told only a couple of people this, I want to be the ANUS of the Body…each body needs one…to get rid of all the excrement! If I manage to wade through all that has been written,from the RCC position, and am up to the task, I will reply again. Otherwise, have a nice life. Be blessed and be a blessing, Baruch B’Shem Yeshua
BTW, I don’t “hate” RCC’s. I have known my share of ex-Roman Catholics, some bitter Catholics, some very, very disobedient Roman Catholics, etc. As a matter of fact, I once knew a fellow who worked at a prison, and in the prison system, and he said that a good number of prisoners in a lot of prisons are Roman Catholics…and what of the priest pedophile scandals? I’m sure that these people were “taking the body and blood of ‘”Christ” regularly. I am NOT perfect…and I might fail or fall tomorrow, so I don’t say any of this with malice. I think that there are elements of Truth in most religious expressions. Perhaps “RELIGION” is THE problem, and personal RELATIONSHIP is the solution! If by “Catholic” is meant “UNIVERSAL”, I might concede that there is ONE HOLY, (KODESH, SET APART) people of God…but for me, it is NOT the Roman church. I don’t even want to follow the roman, solar, pagan calendar! When I look at it, I see that the “new moon” is in the middle of the current, solar moonth…and that should NOT be. YHVH put the lights in the heavens for times and seasons, and “it is the ANTI-MESSIAH who thinks to change times and seasons”. As a matter of fact, after Messiah Yeshua returns, we, the REDEEMED, will be going up to worship Him, “from one new moon to another and fro one Sabbath to another”. I have had people tell me, “we don’t know which day is the 7th day”…but then, tell me, how do you know which day is the FIRST DAY, since you tell me that the Sabbath has been changed from the 7th day to the FIRST day of the week? Besides, YHVH did NOT send His Gentile, Aryan son, “Jesus”, to start a “new religion” with its own sabbath, the venerable day of the SUN, sun-day, its own festivals, based on the pagan, solar calendar and the spring equinox and the winter solstice, and now we are FREE TO eat bat, rat, cat, dog, hog, mouse, snail, slug, squid, horse, alligator, hippo, etc., etc., ad nauseum!
Messiah Yeshua’s death and resurrection sets us FREE FROM the world, the flesh, the devil and false religion, and FREE TO love, honor, obey, worship and serve HIM, the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, in Spirit and in Truth! Period. We are BEING “saved”, and yes, we are called SAINTS in Scripture, so we must do better to act like SAINTS! I have always hated it when someone said, “I’m just a sinner saved by grace”, which is true, to an extent…but you don’t continue to intentionally, deliberately, and habitually SIN, if you are truly born again! 1 John 3:4 tells us that “sin is transgression of the Law”, and 1 John 3:9 tells us that if we are truly born of God, (born again) we DO NOT SIN! If sin is “transgression of the Law, then why do some say that “Obedience to the Law is sin”? Doesn’t make sense. Once again, the people under the Law in the Tanakh were NOT born again, because it wasn’t possible at that time. And they did NOT have the indwelling HOLY SPIRIT…we are told that at the First Shavuot, (Feast of Weeks) “the Holy Spirit was WITH you, but NOW WILL BE IN you”! So, even devout, observant Jews, just as Zacharias and Elizabeth “were perfect according to the Law”…but they STILL awaited the Messiah! Zacharias was a PRIEST at the TEMPLE, and he was the father of John the Baptiser! So, I’m sure that they did everything according to that LAW of the TEMPLE, the sacrifices for sin, and the offerings, etc., in accordance with the regulations of the Temple/Tabernacle. But that is what the Book of Hebrews said was “of necessity, was going to change” with Messiah Yeshua’s ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice! He doesn’t need to be sacrificed over and over and over again, ad infinitum! And yes, I agree, Protestants don’t have it all together, but Messiah Yeshua’s ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice DELIVERED us from the PENALTY of sin, (transgression of the Law), delivers us from the POWER of sin, as we surrender day by day, minute by minute, hour by hour, to His Word and His revealed Will, and WILL SAVE us from the very PRESENCE of sin…when we die or if He returns and we “are alive and remain”. SAVED< SAVES< WILL SAVE…same yesterday, today and tomorrow! He is ALWAYS THERE, at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven, making intercession for us. And we can go directly in to the throne room in heaven, because the VEIL WAS RENT IN THE TEMPLE FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, OPENING THE WAY INTO THE HOLY OF HOLIES, when Messiah Yeshua died! Hallelujah! You can keep making sacrifices, but that is the "works of the Law", according to the "Law that was becoming obsolete and was passing away". It is MOAB all over again! I don't think that I can go over and over and over this again and again…because I"m not going to convince you otherwise, of what you have understood to be the Truth for a long time now. AS I said previously, we are ALL CALLED, and we must hear the Call, heed the CALL and obey the CALL…and then we are CHOSEN. And we are admonished to walk in Truth, because some of the Natural Branches were "broken off because of unbelief" and that is "HOUSE OF ISRAEL", which was prophesied in the Book of Hosea…there are 2 Houses of Israel..
.All JEWS are ISRAEL, but NOT ALL ISRAEL are JEWS! Does that make sense? Paul tell us that we were grafted in where the natural branches were broken off, and we CAN BE BROKEN OFF, as well, IF we don't continue in the TRUE FAITH ONCE DELIVERED. And you say it was the Roman Catholic "church", and I say it was the MESSIANIC Community of FAITH, the "ONE NEW MAN"< that you agreed with me about….including Jews and Gentiles…but Messiah Yeshua said that "I came only for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel", and those are the 10 lost tribes who were the broken branches…who were scattered in the nations and lost their identity! Also known as the House of Israel/Joseph/Ephraim! But the "one new man" was NOT the GENTILE "church" that was established that makes up it's own "laws" as it goes along, it's own sabbath, festivals, dietary license, etc., I don't use "graven images" in "worship", I observe the 7th day Sabbath, I don't elicit lust…if I love my neighbor, I KEEP ALL of the COMMANDMENTS TOWARD HIM/HER! If I love my neighbor, I won't covet his/her possessions, I won't make my neighbor work on Sabbath, I won't steal from my neighbor, I won't become angry and kill my neighbor, etc., etc., and Messiah was even more stringent in the New Covenant, He said not even to be angry without cause or even to look at a woman to lust after her was adultery of the heart, and as I said, for women, it is NOT TO elicit LUST! Scripture says, "a fair woman without discretion/modesty, is like a sow with a gold ring in its snout"…SOOOIE! It has ALL been written before, in the Scriptures, and there is NO U.S. copyright on the Scriptures, and anyone can read it and memorize it and quote from it…and you won't be accused of plagiarism. As long as you say, "It is written", and yes, I know that there are seeming contradictions in Scripture, and some things also seem to be very subjective and open to interpretation. There are even words in italics that have been added…and I can't think, right off the top of my head of examples that I have written down to question or to confirm. And I have been known to throw my Bible across the room a time or two. But He is faithful, even when I don't always make it…He expects me to be "HOLY", (Kodesh, set apart) NOT perfect 100% of the time….as I said, we are NOT to willfully, intentionally, deliberately and habitually transgress His Law/Word! I beg to differ with you, that Gentiles were not supposed to "go into the synagogues on the Sabbath", You said that you rely on the Book of Acts for the establishment of the RCC, and then you ignore what the Book of Acts clearly says. I have had people tell me that the disciples went on the "first day of the week", but we have explored that, and the conclusion is that the first day of the week began after sunset on Sabbath. The first believers, Jew and Gentile went into the synagogues, until later, when the Messianic Jews and Gentile converts were kicked out of the synagogues. I have read all of the His-Story…ALL of it! The way that YHVH writes the Law/Torah on our hearts and puts it in our minds, is when we meditate on it day and night and also when we hear it read/taught/proclaimed in the synagogue by believing Messianic teachers! I've been down this road before, and I think that you have your mind made up…so what use is it to try to convince you? Or for you to try to convince me of the rightness or wrongness of something. Gentile, Aryan "Jesus" did NOT start a "new religion" so the Jews could "convert to that new religion". NOT!
Look, I have spent my whole life exploring this and examining Scripture from various points of view, and as I said, HE called me out of Reformation to Transformation Christianity…reformation being external, transformation being internal…I am where I belong…and you are where you want to be. So, we are where we are, and pardon me for interrupting your debate with a couple of guys. I am at the point now, that I just want to "live a quiet peaceable life, working with my own hands to provide my needs,( NOT greeds), minding my own business"….just as I have always tried to do. Please forgive me for interrupting your debate. I mean it. I don't need to debate everyone on the internet. I have always kept a garden, done my own housework, cooking, dishes, laundry, etc…and have worked outside the home some. .I have taught Bible class for Jr High kids, was a mentor for the Mom's & More group of young women, a small group Bible study leader for Morning Break Women's Bible Study, a deaconess, sang in the choir, played in the orchestra, worked in the Tape Ministry, supervised about 70 volunteers, edited teaching tapes for radio broadcast, was the Radio Producer for a while, was also a volunteer and the Director of a CPC, and have done various other volunteer activities in and out of "church". I have raised two daughters and helped out with 3 grands. Our older daughter fosters young children, so we are doing all that we can to "walk worthy". In addition to other ministry opportunities as they arise. I am content with what He has called me to …and in the expression of the "faith once delivered", which I am convinced is Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism. To me, the Gentile "church" has been ripped from it's Hebrew roots…and BTW, Abraham was NOT a "Jew"…he was the first Hebrew…which means to cross over…and in our case, as adopted children of Abraham through Messiah Yeshua, we have crossed over from death to LIFE! And yes, our body is a tent…and mortality will put on immortality…we were not created with physical bodies, but with glorified bodies…and we will return to that state, when we receive the final redemption! Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven! Scripture tells us that! All of Messiah's blood was POURED OUT! I don't literally drink His blood! That's the stuff of vampires! I had a RCC woman shriek at me once, because she said "you don't take the body and blood of Christ"! She sat on the other end of the phone line and shrieked until she was exhausted, so I had put the phone down next to me, until she finished her rant, and was quiet and then I picked up the phone and said, "I'm going to hang up now, this conversation is going nowhere". Prior to that, she had told me that she couldn't figure out how I had been graced by God in so many ways! (Because I wasn't RCC) Go figure!
BTW, I know about the Karaite Jews…Scripture only. I think that baptism is an outward sign of an inward work! More on these issues later. I'm sure that the "big guns", the "Jewish" guns, are out now to frighten and intimidate me. NOT. I don't think that Messianics are trying to re-invent the wheel…but I do know that too many are putting their teachings out there without thinking them through. A lot of people come into that expression of faith with their own pre-suppositions and their own mind-set. As I have done a lot of research about it, there are different levels of belief and practice within the RCC, as well. But the thing that I can't come to terms with is the fact that the RCC is stuck in Moab, with an earthly tabernacle, an earthly priesthood/priestly class, and altar sacrifices. And if the Roman establishment will not look at that and answer that, it will continue to be a source of contention for those of us who are IN MESSIAH YESHUA.
You think that I am missing out and I think that you are missing out. So, once again, be blessed and be a blessing…and seek His face! "Bring EVERY THOUGHT into captivity to the mind of Messiah", and know that "I will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Me".
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Jennifer,
Circumcision was symbolic of the covenant between the Almighty and the Hebrew people. The New Covenant it is the mikveh – ie Baptism is the entry point into the covenant. The Eucharist is the sacrifice of the new and eternal covenant.
There is no requirement for circumcision. There is no requirement to cause pain in boy as there is no requirement to case pain in girls by having clitoridectomy. I am certain that there is some medical study somewhere touting the health benefits of clitoridectomies. Medical establishment in many European countries came out against it as a barbaric practice serving no health purpose.
The Messianic Jews are attempting to re-invent the wheel WITHOUT understanding the structure given by Christ. Most Messianic Jews come out of the Reformed tradition though some come out of Conservative Judaism. Jews who have studied the Torah Shebaal Peh, that is those who are immersed in Jewish Tradition become Catholics. Protestantism denies the existence of the Torah Shebaal Peh as a human invented tradition like the Karaite Jews.
In the last few days my best friend (we grew up together) who is a Ultra Orthodox Lubavitch Jew and I have been debating with some of our other protestant friends why the New Testament nor the Tanakh is useless to Protestants because they cannot begin to understand the context of Bible. We are both stomping on the Protestant friends because while they know the Bible, they do not know the context of the Bible. But if one knew the Torah Shebaal Pah one can know the Torah Shebichtav. Real Jews study the Torah Shebaal Peh. Fake Jews do not. Catholicism at is core is based, like Judaism on the Torah Shebaal Peh, which is which gave us the Torah Shebichtav.
This is why Catholicism is very different from Protestantism. Catholicism is born directly out of Judaism. Protestants like saying ARE YOU SAVED? Protestants miss the point.
How one gets to heaven is the same in both Judaism and Catholicism. You ought to become a saint – a tzaddik. This is what Jews and Catholics are called to be. Not to be “saved” but to become a saint. Faith, for Jews and Catholics is putting our trust in the justice of the Almighty and if that does not do, then in His mercy – that is what faith means to Jews and Catholics.How do we become saints. tzadiks? kedushah, or holiness by becoming united with the Almighty, become like G_d. How do we do this? Prayer, mortification (denying the yetzer ra) and charity (feeding the yetzer tov). The Almighty has not changed how we get into heaven, from the Old to the New. It is the same.
As far as the mitzvot, we no longer have to, though one can choose to do so as a Jewish Catholic. I do not, even though both my parents are of Jewish ancestry. Judaism is fulfilled in Catholicism not Messianic Christianity. Catholicism is the original Messianic Judaism, and it is authentic because it hold to Jewish Traditions which is the reason the Protestants broke from Catholicism. Protestants deny it, while Catholicism affirms it.
If you are a REAL Jew and not one of the fake Jews I suggest that you study the Midrash and Mishna. The Jews believe when the Mashiach comes he will usher in the Olam Haba where Jew and Gentile will be united into one family and one nation and no longer will the sacrifice be one of expiatory offerings but of thanksgiving. Catholics following this same tradition, claiming that the Messiah has already come (in the person of Jesus) and Jew and Gentile are already united into one ecclesia and no longer do they offer an expiatory offerings but one of thanksgiving (that is what the word Eucharist means). This is the difference between Catholicism and Judaism.
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Jennifer, do you believe in Transubstantiation? If not, would you like to have a really good and fruitful debate with Timothy P on this blog:
The Holy Eucharist and the Church Fathers
https://solasymbolic.wordpress.com/2018/03/13/the-holy-eucharist-and-the-church-fathers/
There is also another blog page on Transubstatiation here as well.
Just remember that we try very hard here to be ecumenical since we are truth seekers as well. Charity must be front and center at all times.
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All I’ve got to say about circumcision is a big Thank you to my Parants.
The reason for Paul being against circumcision is very clear in (most of) his Epistles. In fact here is my Acts 15 videos. Part 3 will be completed when I go back home.
Acts 15 – The Universality of the Church we call Catholic – The Council of Jerusalem – Part 1 ~ https://youtu.be/K2slbGAxgWk
The Universality of the Catholic Church – Part 2 – Acts of the Apostles
~ https://youtu.be/mWZh4qDwqR0
Blessings
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Good Morning Jennifer. Ok, I do get what you are trying to convey. I also thank you for your civil tone. We probably agree on many things. Unfortunately, I have to ask Protestants and those who are the unProtestant Protestants (those who claim not to be protestants but have adopted all the Reformational doctrines) whether they believe in the Blessed Trinity or not. So with that said, for me the doctrine of Sola Scriptura has led to many doctrines which are not in scripture.
Now, we probably have many beliefs in common. Maybe the Blessed Trinity, the Incarnation, the Hypostatic Union, Baptisimal Regeneration and Infant Baptism (which would conform with the 8th day of Circumcision). Maybe, maybe not.
Now, the many Messianic Jews I have come in contact with (via online) believe in the Real & Substantial Presence because they understand the Last Supper and what was left out of it and what was added it and revealed in it by Christ Jesus. Lets put that aside for now.
I want to address the Early Church Fathers and discuss your comment that “… unfortunately they sometimes disagree about some things.”
Yes they do disagree about things that have not been dogmatically defined by the Church. Its always possible to find dissenting figures in the Fathers, but not as a Consensus.
The other person who is an administrator of this blog has Jewish roots and knows very much about Judaisim, can discuss your objections.
I do find some interesting propositions you are making about Pentecost which I don’t see what you are seeing there.
This is very interesting: It is also interesting that we are told that Gentiles are “wild branches”, grafted, CONTRARY TO NATURE, into the good, cultivated Olive Tree of Redeemed, believing remnant “Israel”!
Well Paul also said: Ephesians 2:11-16 NASB
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands- [12] remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [13] But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. [14] For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, [15] by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, [16] and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Jennifer, as a Catholic, I take all scripture into account. I don’t think you are seeing God as we wants to be seen though the Wisdom He has given to the Church.
Blessings, getting ready for fishing.
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Also, since you mentioned it, circumcision is the ONE thing from the Tanakh and from Judaism, that St Paul tells Gentile believers NOT to do, but curiously, it is the ONE thing that almost everyone of the men do. It doesn’t make sense. I did some research on it for medical purposes, and while there is still debate on the benefits, it doesn’t seem to be medically necessary. The medical establishment, of course, recommends it, because they get paid for doing it, generally. Curious, indeed.
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Thank you for your gracious reply to my comment. Of course, there will be disagreements. because, as I said, NO ONE has perfect knowledge…yet. Thank you for graciously allowing me to express my informed opinion on some of these matters, even if you do not agree.
From what I understand, many of these were God-fearers. Now, even among Messianics, there can be a “heavy emphasis in the mess in Messianic”. Once again, no human has all knowledge. The problem may be, I think, is that some who teach, are too busy or prideful, most of the time, to let anyone else even ask questions, let alone, express an alternate view. And some are motivated, external, by money, to keep cranking out teachings and materials to sell, and they want to “be the first” to introduce a teaching. Inspiration is internal, by the power of the Holy Spirit, informed by the Scriptures, so what we learn has to be confirmed by “two or three witnesses” in Scripture
I do understand, and acknowledge some of what you are saying, but obviously not all of it. I know that there was a time when the Messianic Jews were no longer welcome in the synagogues, and true, the first believers met in various places…after they were kicked out of the Temple and synagogues, and then, eventually, established their own Messianic places of worship….whether it was in the open countryside, or in small house fellowships, etc.
I have studied some of the Early Church Fathers, and unfortunately, they sometimes disagree about some things. Obviously, I do disagree with some of the rites and rituals that were established apart from the teachings in the Tanakh. Aren’t we told in the Apostolic Scriptures, that “it is Anti-Messiah who thinks to change times and seasons”? For me, Messiah died on Passover, rose on First Fruits, the Holy Spirit was given to indwell believers on Shavuot…not on some Greco-Roman festival called “Pentecost”, which is what it means, but like many things in “church”, some of these things have been ripped from their Hebrew Roots! YHVH established the lights in the heavens for times and seasons, and He did that at Creation.
It is also interesting that we are told that Gentiles are “wild branches”, grafted, CONTRARY TO NATURE, into the good, cultivated Olive Tree of Redeemed, believing remnant “Israel”! In the natural world, good branches are grafted into wild olive trees, because wild olive trees are winter cold and heat & drought hardy, insect and dis-ease resistant, etc.!
Once again, thank you for the thoughtful exchange.
Peace
Baruch B’Shem Yeshua,
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Thanks for all that. There are some things I disagree with in your comment and you make assertions which you are welcome to believe.
The Gentile converts were never meant to go to the synagogue because they were non-Jews, were not proselytes, nor God-Fearers. The Jewish Christians get booted from the Temple after the Apostle James is murdered.
All Christians, both Jew and gentile meet for worship and the breaking of the bread in various places, i.e. house Churches, in open air worship and possibly in erected small churches.
My faith comes from the Apostolic Church we see in Acts of the Apostles, which grew, like the mustard seed, to be the largest tree in the garden. The Church experienced growth and development which is attested to by the Early Church Fathers who are our esrliest witnesses to the infant Church.
Blessings
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Interesting. With all due respect, your comment could be interpreted in several ways. I am aware of a couple of things, and one is, the Holy Spirit never leads apart from or contrary to the Holy Scriptures, ALL of the Scriptures, the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings. Scripture means “writing”. The Scriptures don’t teach “the fatherhood of A god, brotherhood of man” ideal…that is the Masonic Lie. We are ALL part of fallen creation, but SOME of us are part of redeemed creation, through Messiah Yeshua’s blood covenant. We ALL rely on the grace of God, YHVH, for our salvation and our ability to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling”. I am also aware of the fact that, the RCC teaches that if Scripture says one thing, and the Pope says another, that people must trust the Pope. That is the same thing that many Rabbis also say. And I will admit that some Protestant clergy also say. You asked what my faith tradition is. I was raised in the Presbyterian tradition, but was raised with a mixture of Truth and error, which is the most deceptive form of destruction or the most destructive form of deception. Later on, after I left home and had gone to hospital training and college, I began to take my faith seriously, and to make it my own, and was in the Non-denominational Evangelical “church” for many years, until God called me in a different direction, and I actually walk in the Messianic expression of the “faith once delivered”. I am a Messianic Gentile. And actually, the Gentile, Aryan “Jesus”, who abolished the Law of YHVH and upholds sin, is a false Christ, an idol made in fallen mankind’s own image and likeness. And who invented that false Christ? It was those who claimed that anyone who kept the 7th day Sabbath, the Feasts of YHVH, and the rest of Torah were “Judaizers”…but the real “Judaizers”, were those who became circumcised to change their ethnic status, thinking it necessary to become “Jews”…but actually, keeping the commandments of YHVH is Yeshuish, NOT necessarily Jewish. In Jeremiah 31:31-33, the Promise of the New Covenant is declared, and part of that New Covenant is that YHVH WOULD write His Law on the hearts of the recipients and put it in their minds. In Hebrews 8:8-10, the fulfillment is declared, which tells us that, in fact, YHVH DID make that New Covenant “with the House of Israel and with the House of Yehudah”, and that He DID write His Law on the hearts of the recipients and put it in their minds. In the Book of Acts, the question was NOT, “what are we going to do with all of the Jews who are coming to faith in the Gentile, Aryan Jesus?”, but “what are we (Messianic Jews) going to do with all the Gentiles who are coming to faith in the Jewish Messiah Yeshua?” And it was decided to give the Gentiles 4 stipulations to follow for table fellowship with the Messianic Jews, and then, “for Moses is read/taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath in every city”. Therefore, the Gentiles could get the rest of the Torah when they went into the synagogues with the Messianic Jews on the Sabbath, in the city where they lived. They could get the Torah teaching the same way that the Messianic Jews had received it, “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little”. I don’t want to argue with you, Sir, but it has taken me many years to sort this out, and the Holy Spirit has confirmed, through the Scriptures and through others in whom the Spirit dwells, that I am where I am supposed to be. One major reason most ethnic Jews don’t believe in the Savior, is because the “church”, whether RCC or Protestant, have put forward a Gentile, Aryan Jesus. I have devout, observant, Jewish friends, and I am NOT about to try to “convert” them to the Gentile, Aryan Jesus, because that is NOT the True Messiah Savior. Gentiles are NOT their own “new olive tree”. It is I who am “grafted into the good, cultivated Olive Tree of (REDEEMED, BELIEVING REMNANT Spiritual) Israel”, Messianic Israel! Messiah Yeshua’s “Once for all sacrifice”, makes Him the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”…the Penalty, the Power, and one day, the Presence of sin! The sacrifice does NOT need to be repeated over and over again by a priest, at an altar with a little “tabernacle”! This may be boring to you, and it may make you “yawn”, but it is the TRUTH! Messiah Yeshua’s once for all sacrifice doesn’t just COVER sin, it takes it away! Some people accept Gentile Jesus’ payment of the penalty for sin, because they don’t want to “feel” guilty, when they sin. But faith must be based on FACTS,NOT “feelings”. Love is NOT indulgence and/or gushy sentimentalism! Please! I had a RCC friend once, who said to me, “my faith is like, I’m standing at the back door of my house, and it’s dark out there, and God tells me to just ‘take a leap in the dark’ “! And I gently said, “that’s not my faith…my faith is a leap into the LIGHT, it’s an informed faith”. I don’t have ALL the answers, and I don’t have PERFECT KNOWLEDGE… NO ONE PERSON DOES! NOT even the Pope. ONLY YHVH! And He is ECHAD, ONE…manifest in 3 persons/personalities. The Shema states it well; “Hear, O Israel, The Lord, our God, YHVH, is ONE (Echad)”. I won’t write any more messages to you, because I don’t think that you are truly interested, brother. But Peace to you, and Baruch B’Shem Yeshua…
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Grace and peace be multipied to you.
If I didn’t show Agape love to those who follow another Messiah, I would be condemning Protestants for not following the True Christ, but one made in their own image and likeness. I show Agape love to all Gods Children and recognize that if it wasnt for Gods grace, I would also follow a false christ is a non denominational congregation.
Blessings
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Always Charity and good will. Blessing and Peace to all, except those who preach ANOTHER Messiah, other than the ONE preached who is Yeshua, who “came NOT to abolish the Law & the Prophets, but to fulfill”. 2 Corinthians 11:4
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The Blood of the Martyrs testify to the Truth of the Church found in scripture. That Church will eventually place the word Catholic in front of the word Church out of necessity. The word Catholic Church applies to any mention of Church in scripture.
Jesus established only one Church. He is not a polygamist. Jesus only has one Bride.
What denomination is your faith tradition?
Thank you sister fir commenting. Here on this blog we always assume people are commenting out of Charity and good-will.
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Yawn.
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Shabbat Shalom…Very interesting, and I truly like a lot of what Theo has written, but, if you want the simple truth, please understand that the RCC, even though many deny it, worship the Gentile, Aryan jesus, who abolished the Law of YHVH and upholds sin…NOT the “Lion of the Tribe of Yehudah”, who upholds the Law of YHVH and abolished sin! He is the “Lamb of YHVH who TAKES AWAY the sin of the world”, the Penalty, the Power, and one day, the Presence of sin. Also, the RCC went back to Moab, NOT to Sinai. Sinai is divine & eternal, Moab, “another covenant BESIDES”, was temporary, to make it possible for Israel to live in YHVH”s presence without being wiped off the face of the earth while living in the Land, until Messiah appeared. YHVH’s Torah has come down to us, ALL of us, as the “Law of Moses”, because the children of Israel asked God/YHVH, NOT to speak directly to them, after He spoke the 10 commandments, so the rest of Torah, He spoke to and through Moses in the rest of Exodus and Leviticus. There was NO earthly priesthood, NO Tabernacle/Temple, and NO altar sacrifices for sin at Sinai…but those things were “added because of transgressions”, to the Covenant of Moab…AFTER the incident with the golden calf.
NO Phd needed, NO scholar, NO theologian, NO Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic speaker,. Just a Messianic Gentile, a “wild branch” who is grafted into the good, cultivated Olive Tree of redeemed, believing remnant, “commonwealth of Israel”. Just a humble disciple of Messiah Yeshua. The RCC went back and established an earthly priesthood, and a little tabernacle at the “altar” on which they do repeated sacrifices.Moab is/was the “Law that was becoming obsolete and was passing away”…and the reason it is stated that way in the Book of Hebrews is because the Temple was still standing in Jerusalem when that was written. It had NOT passed away yet, at that time…even though Messiah Yeshua had already died and rose again and was glorified. The unbelieving Jews, non-Messianic Jews, had NOT given up on the Temple sacrifices to COVER sin…therefore, if believers had become circumcised in the flesh, according to Rabbinic thought, they would have changed their ethnic status to that of Jews, and of necessity, to fit into the community, would have had to go to the Temple and make sacrifices…but Messiah Yeshua’s “ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE”, is what we are reminded of when we partake of the Cup of Redemption of the Passover, once a year, and “Proclaim His death until He returns”.
Baruch B’Shem Yeshua
Jennifer
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“What is so hard here….”
Well, for starters, your admission that you can’t even be bothered to read what I’ve posted.
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“You claim that there is a mitzvah which obliges that all persons wash their hands before they eat.”
Nope, You are the one who made that claim. In point of fact, it was YOU who made that claim.
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” All I am asking is which one of the mitzvah obliges that all persons wash their hands before they eat. If you cannot provide the relevant mitzvah you are a liar, plain and simple.”
Yeah, we all got your question. We all saw how you just threw that into the mix. I didn’t bite. I simply stated the facts for all to see; facts which you still haven’t addressed.
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” Don’t tell me Lev 11-15″
Leviticus 11-15 goes into plenty of detail on when to wash, yet you don’t want to look at this simple fact? Big surprise.
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“… that is a lot for one simple mitzvah!!!”
No, it’s a lot for someone who isn’t accustomed to reading. Your obsession with this being a “mitzvah” isn’t surprising given that you simply asserted that this was my assertion.
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“WRITE OUT THE EXACT MITZVAH FOR ME…”
I never claimed it was a MITZVAH.
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” that is all I am asking. Is that so hard?”
Anyone who has read through this thread ought to find your incredulity a bit ironic, if not disingenuous, especially given the fact that you’ve neglected to respond to any of my points presented. Accusing me of presenting this as a mitzvah, when I clearly never did any such thing only spotlights your inability to engage in an honest discussion.
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” If you cannot, you are a liar.”
More baseless accusations. You really are getting a bit tiresome. Are you ever going to join in the actual discussion, or are you just going to rant and rave till you have a coronary?
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” Do not call a gentile a goy or goyim;”
Why are you going to exile me from this silly sad excuse for intelligent discussion?
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” it is considered rude,”
LOL. The pot calling the kettle black. So we can safely assume that calling people “dumbass morons” is acceptable, right? I’ve seen no indication that you will be presented with any punishment for these silly posts of yours, so either there’s a blatant double standard here, or when one can’t refute their opponent, censor them instead.
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“especially when you are one yourself.”
Regardless of my ethnic or religious background, you still aren’t advancing an argument. Ad hominem attacks are just more silly distractions from silly goyim who will never learn how to engage in an intelligent conversation.
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” Many Jews of my generation cringe when another Jew uses that word.”
Your generation? If you’ve graduated from high school, then you are an obvious product of a failed public school system. I doubt you’re old enough to have graduated from junior high.
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” An authentic Jew would usually call non-Jews gentiles rather than goyim”
The True Scotsman fallacy.
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“. It just gives you away as a poser trying too hard.”
What I’m trying to do is find someone here who can address or even refute what I’ve posted so far. There really is no effort in posting my position. The effort is in waiting for someone to respond, and present an argument for their position. Instead what I’ve been presented with is ad hominem attacks and pointless distractions. When I post the relevant passages from the Torah all you can come up with is more ad hominem about my use of the word “goyim” Leave it to a papist to get all bent out of shape over a goyim using a Jewish word.
I point out that Jews kept the holiness code as well as the purification rites outlined in their Torah, and all you can do is pretend that I’m referring to a mitzvoh, and engage in semantics. The fact that you’re so bent out of shape and on your high horse thinking that you actually may have pulled a fast one is pathetic. We can all see how you suddenly decided to engage in this thread once you thought you had an actual point to make which only spotlights the fact that you really have nothing to contribute to this topic at all.
The real irony here is that you think you’re somehow insulting me by talking trash about Protestants, cults, etc. when I have no affiliation with any of them in the first place. Then when you decide to accuse me of coming up with this myself, as if thinking for oneself is something to be ashamed of; it should come as no surprise that I need never bother trying to insult you as you’re doing a splendid job of making a fool of yourself as it is. All I’ve done is point out the rope, which you eagerly proceeded to hang yourself with all by your lonesome.
It goes without saying that those who are usually the most easily offended are usually the most offensive, and your posts are a glaring example of this obvious fact. Perhaps you’ll cry and complain that I be exiled again? If you can’t address any of the numerous simple questions I’ve presented then it could only be an improvement for me.
Actually I’m really kind of surprised that my questions haven’t been removed; perhaps there’s hope for you yet. Then again, it may only be the fact that you know no one is ever going to read any of these threads ever again…
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Obviously I am conversing with an imbecile… no answer what so ever just blathering on repeating the same moronic screed ad nauseam.
Dumbass, you indicated it is a mitzvah. I keep asking you which one. In response you just run around making more assertions. Declarative assertions such as you make are the final bastion of an unreasonable mindless cultic fanatic.
I keep asking for a the relevant mitzvah which concerns the washing of hands. The Jews enumerated every one of the mitzvot and codified it. Yet, all you can do is blather nonsense. Is it that hard to provide me the exact mitzvah to back you claim. It is obvious you do not know the mitzvot.
What is so hard here….
You claim that there is a mitzvah which obliges that all persons wash their hands before they eat. All I am asking is which one of the mitzvah obliges that all persons wash their hands before they eat. If you cannot provide the relevant mitzvah you are a liar, plain and simple. All you have to do is provide the mitzvah. Don’t tell me Lev 11-15… that is a lot for one simple mitzvah!!!
WRITE OUT THE EXACT MITZVAH FOR ME… that is all I am asking. Is that so hard? If you cannot, you are a liar.
Funny how an idiot like you cannot provide the relevant mitzvah, yet, can attempt to explain what the Rebbe had to say about the unclean made clean… Do you even know which discourse I am talking about? I suspect you do not know what I am even talking about. Like an idiot, you declare “nonsense” without knowing anything in the discourses or the tradition.
All you have done is read your bible and interpreted it yourself. That is Protestantism. Combine that with the nuttery provided by your demon possessed prophetess Ellen G White’s utterances in her demonic trances can explain much of the idiocy you blather.
Advise to other idiots and other posers like you… Do not call a gentile a goy or goyim; it is considered rude, especially when you are one yourself. Many Jews of my generation cringe when another Jew uses that word. An authentic Jew would usually call non-Jews gentiles rather than goyim. It just gives you away as a poser trying too hard.
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